75 replies to this topic

[Elendir]

they did not use bodkin arrows in the video and their bow was only 90 lbs, not 120 and more than medieval English bows ... at the right angle, the bodkin arrows pass through everything (shields, armors) ... bow - the best historical weapon ever

 

If Merc would be realistic, so there are no full plate armor. Full plate armor with mail and underwear weighed over 50 kilograms. It was useless for fight. 10 peasants with shields and one-handed hammers would easily defeat 10 full plate armor knights with flamberges (without losses). It was used only for effect, intimidation. In merc during the siege - full plate armored guys wouldn't even reach the walls in a given time, if it were by reality.

 

I dont know what video you watched, but all the facts that you are saying are wrong. And like everyone above already proven with alot of sources: Full Plate Armor > Warbow with Bodkin Arrow

 

They say it in the video clearly that its a 160 pound Longbow , so where did you get the 90lbs from?

 

They are infact using an arrow head that is belonging to the bodkin family. You can see alot of bodkin arrowhead types. Yes its not a needle bodkin type, but its still a bodkin that is made for penetrating armor. These arrow types were indeed really succuessful in penetrating chainmail, but it was always stopped alot by the padded gambason. Its really interesting to realise how really well protected you went into a fight. Through that -> It would feel like a kick into the stomach to get hit by a warbow and you will get hurt by it probably.

 

You said "at the right angle, the bodkin arrows pass through everything (shields, armors)" Shields? No way. a normal shield was centimeters of hard wood/steel and hardend material. A shield could withstand anything except a firearm that had too much power overall and was total overkill back then.

 

10 knights vs. 10 peasants? A knight was an elite fighter back then. The history of a knight can be summarized like: a guy that is trained from a young age with all kinds of weapons, horseback riding/fighting and using armor. They were in service of lords who actually paid for all their stuff really often and then the knight had to swear loyality and they were really really brutal fighters against anyone. peasants doesnt know how to properly fight, a knight would slaugther them. And a knight in armor would be way to dangerous.

 

And the most important part already mentioned many times above: the Armor wasnt 50kg and it wasnt that the knight would be totally tired after 10 mins of running around.... If armor would have been so pointless as you said, why would they used it so much? A full set of plate armor was worth a fortune back then...

 

Its always good if some people are interested in medieval history but you should really watch way more video about historical facts: good channels are: Lindybeige , Tods Workshop, Metraton , Skallagrim, Scholagladiatore and many many more.

[Solda]

just the typical plate armour discussion we have once every year

[Elendir]

 

omg.... dont wanna get shot by one of these....

[MortalWombat]

I just stompled upon this really realy good video.

 

 

So in fact everyone who is wearing plate armor would be a nearly non stopping killing maschine and archers couldnt do shit .... Elly would loose his job

oh no's! This game is a lye *tears* my life has lost its purpose!

[RAPT0R]

I dont know what video you watched, but all the facts that you are saying are wrong. And like everyone above already proven with alot of sources: Full Plate Armor > Warbow with Bodkin Arrow

They have bow with power 90 lbs, look at radar (measuring device). 160 lbs = 80 kilograms for pull

 

Needle bodkings with strong bow were tested and passed through all known medieval armors, look at Me_Manes post. Maybe only few centimetres and at the right angle, but they pass through.

 

My real mongolian horse bow with power 50 lbs breaks through 2 centimeters of wood ... with normal / classic arrowheads. If you ever go to a castle or a 12-14th century exhibition, you can see armors, weapons and shields preserved from that period and material from which they were made. They were not light weight modern imitations as you see in the videos. Only chainmail have 15-20 kilograms + full plate armor (20-25 kg) + underwear (0.5 kg) + shield (5 kg) + sword (2-3 kg) = something about 45 kilograms. In MMA fighters have a rest after each 4 min and they fight only with their weight ... an unmounted knight with 45 kilograms could fight intensively for no more than 2 minutes. You can try weighted vest (40 kg) and tell me after how long you kept doing some physical activity. It's not about watching videos, go outside, try it and then talk. 

 

 

If you take 10 full plate armor guys with flamberge (unmounted) vs 10 light armor guys with shields and hammers / axes in the open area, you have a clear winner. Without horses, or good tactics full plate armor guys have no chance. In pc simulators yes, but in reality no. 

 

Full Plate Armor > Warbow with Bodkin Arrow

Yes full plate armor is much more expensive and you have a great chance to survive in it, but 1vs1 (full plate armor guy vs archer ... both mounted or unmounted) in open area ... easy win for archer or draw. No chance to win for armored guy.

[IHaTeCookie]

They have bow with power 90 lbs, look at radar (measuring device). 160 lbs = 80 kilograms for pull

 

Needle bodkings with strong bow were tested and passed through all known medieval armors, look at Me_Manes post. Maybe only few centimetres and at the right angle, but they pass through.

 

My real mongolian horse bow with power 50 lbs breaks through 2 centimeters of wood ... with normal / classic arrowheads. If you ever go to a castle or a 12-14th century exhibition, you can see armors, weapons and shields preserved from that period and material from which they were made. They were not light weight modern imitations as you see in the videos. Only chainmail have 15-20 kilograms + full plate armor (20-25 kg) + underwear (0.5 kg) + shield (5 kg) + sword (2-3 kg) = something about 45 kilograms. In MMA fighters have a rest after each 4 min and they fight only with their weight ... an unmounted knight with 45 kilograms could fight intensively for no more than 2 minutes. You can try weighted vest (40 kg) and tell me after how long you kept doing some physical activity. It's not about watching videos, go outside, try it and then talk. 

 

 

If you take 10 full plate armor guys with flamberge (unmounted) vs 10 light armor guys with shields and hammers / axes in the open area, you have a clear winner. Without horses, or good tactics full plate armor guys have no chance. In pc simulators yes, but in reality no. 

 

Full Plate Armor > Warbow with Bodkin Arrow

Yes full plate armor is much more expensive and you have a great chance to survive in it, but 1vs1 (full plate armor guy vs archer ... both mounted or unmounted) in open area ... easy win for archer or draw. No chance to win for armored guy.

Where the hell do you get the idea that mail (not chainmail there is no such thing) shirts were  20 fucking kilos? Also a knight probably would not use something like a flamberge but instead a hand and a half sword or a longsword. And a mounted knight being defeated by an archer is pure bullshit. You can watch this video for an understanding of how much actual armors weigh https://www.youtube....h?v=I7CUfkGLB48  and Ian also shows examples of real survivals and how much they weigh

[Mr_THEJaManes]

Needle bodkings with strong bow were tested and passed through all known medieval armors, look at Me_Manes post. Maybe only few centimetres and at the right angle, but they pass through.

 

1. Arrows were made with modern materials.

2. Arrows were shot at point blank range ( not giving arrow time to lose its kinetic energy)

3. There were no information about draw weight of the bow used in test.

 

 

 

 

My real mongolian horse bow with power 50 lbs breaks through 2 centimeters of wood ... with normal / classic arrowheads.

 

Is that wood called plywood?

 

 

 

 They were not light weight modern imitations as you see in the videos. Only chainmail have 15-20 kilograms + full plate armor (20-25 kg) + underwear (0.5 kg) + shield (5 kg) + sword (2-3 kg) = something about 45 kilograms. In MMA fighters have a rest after each 4 min and they fight only with their weight ... an unmounted knight with 45 kilograms could fight intensively for no more than 2 minutes. You can try weighted vest (40 kg) and tell me after how long you kept doing some physical activity. It's not about watching videos, go outside, try it and then talk. 

 

 

Weight of the sword (Click to Show)

"Medieval Swords are neither unwieldably heavy nor all alike - the average weight of any one of normal size is between 2.5 lb. and 3.5 lbs. Even the big hand-and-a-half 'war' swords rarely weigh more than 4.5 lbs. Such weights, to men who were trained to use the sword from the age of seven (and who had to be tough specimens to survive that age) , were by no means too great to be practical."(Oakeshott, Sword in Hand, p. 13).

 

Can I get some citation / links to sources you are using for weight of the armour?

 

Armour (big oofy) for late 14th century and early 15th (Click to Show)

https://youtu.be/I7CUfkGLB48?t=966

 

Weighted vest isnt fair comparison for properly made and properly put on plate armour, or even chain mail for that matter.

Weighted vest puts all of the weight on your arms whereas plated armour just like good trekking backpack spreads it on all of your body.

 

 

 

If you take 10 full plate armor guys with flamberge (unmounted) vs 10 light armor guys with shields and hammers / axes in the open area, you have a clear winner. Without horses, or good tactics full plate armor guys have no chance. In pc simulators yes, but in reality no. 

 

 

Frankly "lightly armoured guys" have chances only in simulations because in simulations no one has to think about their lives - they will simply respawn - and that means no daring moves. Heavily armoured fellows would mop the floor in situation like this, unless they are surprised.

 

Full Plate Armor > Warbow with Bodkin Arrow

Yes full plate armor is much more expensive and you have a great chance to survive in it, but 1vs1 (full plate armor guy vs archer ... both mounted or unmounted) in open area ... easy win for archer or draw. No chance to win for armored guy.

 

I won't even tackle this one because frankly it's as stupid as whole "Knight vs Samurai vs Viking" shit that For Honor stirred up.

[Aristotel]

They have bow with power 90 lbs, look at radar (measuring device). 160 lbs = 80 kilograms for pull

 

Needle bodkings with strong bow were tested and passed through all known medieval armors, look at Me_Manes post. Maybe only few centimetres and at the right angle, but they pass through.

 

My real mongolian horse bow with power 50 lbs breaks through 2 centimeters of wood ... with normal / classic arrowheads. If you ever go to a castle or a 12-14th century exhibition, you can see armors, weapons and shields preserved from that period and material from which they were made. They were not light weight modern imitations as you see in the videos. Only chainmail have 15-20 kilograms + full plate armor (20-25 kg) + underwear (0.5 kg) + shield (5 kg) + sword (2-3 kg) = something about 45 kilograms. In MMA fighters have a rest after each 4 min and they fight only with their weight ... an unmounted knight with 45 kilograms could fight intensively for no more than 2 minutes. You can try weighted vest (40 kg) and tell me after how long you kept doing some physical activity. It's not about watching videos, go outside, try it and then talk. 

 

 

If you take 10 full plate armor guys with flamberge (unmounted) vs 10 light armor guys with shields and hammers / axes in the open area, you have a clear winner. Without horses, or good tactics full plate armor guys have no chance. In pc simulators yes, but in reality no. 

 

Full Plate Armor > Warbow with Bodkin Arrow

Yes full plate armor is much more expensive and you have a great chance to survive in it, but 1vs1 (full plate armor guy vs archer ... both mounted or unmounted) in open area ... easy win for archer or draw. No chance to win for armored guy.

I can understand why you like archery so much, it is definitely an effective warfare art, and experienced archers could perform very well on the battlefield, but come on, thinking that people never thought of a way to counter is just silly. Yes, bodkin arrows can penetrate SOMETIMES, like when hitting vents on the helmets or other vulnerable parts of the equipment, but that was an extremely rare occasion. Archer defeating a mounted knight is ridiculious. Archers never positioned themselves on a distance where they can aim at exact spots on a body, arrows were shot from long distances and there is no way you can plant an accurate shot like that. When hundreds of arrows are shot in the air, of course there is a chance of at least one of them successfully hurting the opponent, but that movie/games thematic where an archer just plants arrows into people's heads/armpits and etc with 100% accuracy is fantasy, it never occured in real life

Even if the arrows don't penetrate, you gotta take into consideration the kinetic power of them which not only causes extreme pain, but could knock you unconscious, cause brain trauma, damage internal organs and sinews. Even then, they had padding under armor to partially counter that

Edited by Aristotel, 08 September 2019 - 14:55.

[RAPT0R]

Where the hell do you get the idea that mail (not chainmail there is no such thing) shirts were  20 fucking kilos? Also a knight probably would not use something like a flamberge but instead a hand and a half sword or a longsword. And a mounted knight being defeated by an archer is pure bullshit. You can watch this video for an understanding of how much actual armors weigh https://www.youtube....h?v=I7CUfkGLB48  and Ian also shows examples of real survivals and how much they weigh

mail or chain mail is same thing ... your video shows the weight of modern armors made from carbon steel (in history they use only aluminium (soft metal) or steel which was 2x heavier like carbon steel) ... you can multiply the weight from the video (2x)

 

carbon steel is also harder and has better properties ... you can not compare medieval armors with today's armors

 

And how can mounted knight defeat mounted archer? Provided they have equally fast horses. Horse archer has less weight = he is faster and he has better maneuverability. He can use shot and run tactics and kill knight's horse. If a knight doesn't kill himself by falling from a horse, then HA shoots the remaining arrows at him. If no arrow kills the knight, the archer can escape or follow the knight from a distance. Once the knight gets tired and takes off his armor. The same situation would have occurred without horses.

[Mr_THEJaManes]

... your video shows the weight of modern armors made from carbon steel (in history they use only aluminium (soft metal) or steel which was 2x heavier like carbon steel) ... you can multiply the weight from the video (2x)

 

carbon steel is also harder and has better properties ... you can not compare medieval armors with today's armors

 

What the fuck? Aluminium is lighter than iron/steel. Old engines (not sure abour new ones) are made of aluminium.

 

+

Al (Click to Show)

A pure form of the metal was first successfully extracted from ore in 1825 by Danish chemist Hans-Christian

[RAPT0R]

I can understand why you like archery so much, it is definitely an effective warfare art, and experienced archers could perform very well on the battlefield, but come on, thinking that people never thought of a way to counter is just silly. Yes, bodkin arrows can penetrate SOMETIMES, like when hitting vents on the helmets or other vulnerable parts of the equipment, but that was an extremely rare occasion. Archer defeating a mounted knight is ridiculious. Archers never positioned themselves on a distance where they can aim at exact spots on a body, arrows were shot from long distances and there is no way you can plant an accurate shot like that. When hundreds of arrows are shot in the air, of course there is a chance of at least one of them successfully hurting the opponent, but that movie/games thematic where an archer just plants arrows into people's heads/armpits and etc with 100% accuracy is fantasy, it never occured in real life

Even if the arrows don't penetrate, you gotta take into consideration the kinetic power of them which not only causes extreme pain, but could knock you unconscious, cause brain trauma, damage internal organs and sinews. Even then, they had padding under armor to partially counter that

 

I meant they had both horses or none of them.

 

Battle of Agincourt

English deployment (1500 men at arms and 7000 longbowmen)

French deployment (total French army size something around 50 000, mainly men at arms ... but there was more like 2000 mounted knights)

England won

 

100% accuracy is fantasy, but 98% is not ... Lars Andersen has been practicing archery maybe for 10 years, good archers in history train it for 10-30 years ... I've been training it for over a year and I can hit a 5x5 cm target from 30 meters away (4 hits from 5 arrows). Yes, it's a stationary target, but still.

Edited by RAPT0R, 08 September 2019 - 16:28.

[RAPT0R]

What the fuck? Aluminium is lighter than iron/steel. Old engines (not sure abour new ones) are made of aluminium.

 

+

Al (Click to Show)

A pure form of the metal was first successfully extracted from ore in 1825 by Danish chemist Hans-Christian

Aluminium is lighter than iron/steel. I have never written that it is not. But it is soft metal. And steel/iron is min 2x heavier than carbon steel. That's why you can't compare medieval armors with today's. Today's armors are lighter, solid and behave differently to arrows.

[RAPT0R]

http://www.benjaminr...medieval-armor/

[IHaTeCookie]

mail or chain mail is same thing ... your video shows the weight of modern armors made from carbon steel (in history they use only aluminium (soft metal) or steel which was 2x heavier like carbon steel) ... you can multiply the weight from the video (2x)

 

carbon steel is also harder and has better properties ... you can not compare medieval armors with today's armors

 

And how can mounted knight defeat mounted archer? Provided they have equally fast horses. Horse archer has less weight = he is faster and he has better maneuverability. He can use shot and run tactics and kill knight's horse. If a knight doesn't kill himself by falling from a horse, then HA shoots the remaining arrows at him. If no arrow kills the knight, the archer can escape or follow the knight from a distance. Once the knight gets tired and takes off his armor. The same situation would have occurred without horses.

mail and chainmail is not the same thing because chainmail does not exist. In history mail was referred to as mail and only mail. A horse archers bows draw weight is lower than a longbowmens, So a HA bow would not do shit against properly made armor anyways. And you should really get that "armor is heavy as fuck and you get exhausted in 2 minutes" bullshit out of your mind. Unlike your examples of try wearing that etc. Plate armors weight is evenly distrubited in the body. And there are also things that make it more comfortable to wear. For example cuirasses or breastplates have slim waists and there is also the padding underneath which makes the armor more comfy to wear. Also where the hell did you get the idea of "multiply that by 2x". In the video I gave as an example shows actual surviving armor and his armors weight is very close to the real examples if not the same.

[Mr_THEJaManes]

Aluminium is lighter than iron/steel. I have never written that it is not. But it is soft metal. And steel/iron is min 2x heavier than carbon steel. That's why you can't compare medieval armors with today's. Today's armors are lighter, solid and behave differently to arrows.

 

Where did you come up with aluminium armour in middle ages? And give us some data, some labels that prove your claim that steel is 2x heavier than carbon steel.

[RAPT0R]

Where did you come up with aluminium armour in middle ages? And give us some data, some labels that prove your claim that steel is 2x heavier than carbon steel.

https://www.thekitch...on-steel-235289

 

Cast iron: A Lodge 12-inch cast iron skillet weighs 8 pounds.

Carbon steel: A Lodge 12-inch carbon steel skillet weighs 4.4 pounds.

 

Carbon is almost half lighter, you can finally understand it.

 

Aluminium armor

https://www.swordsan...or-Aluminum.htm

Edited by RAPT0R, 08 September 2019 - 17:29.

[Mr_THEJaManes]

 

https://www.thekitch...on-steel-235289

 

Cast iron: A Lodge 12-inch cast iron skillet weighs 8 pounds.

Carbon steel: A Lodge 12-inch carbon steel skillet weighs 4.4 pounds.

 

Carbon is almost half lighter, you can finally understand it.

 

 

The thing is that cast iron wasn't used for armours wasnt it?

Cast iron is brittle I imagine that It could break after a good smack with a wooden mace.

 

Instead medieval armours were made from steel.

 

 

 

Aluminium armor

https://www.swordsan...or-Aluminum.htm

 

 

Do you know that it isnt from that time period. As you probably didnt read what I sent some time ago.

 

Al (Click to Show)

A pure form of the metal was first successfully extracted from ore in 1825 by Danish chemist Hans-Christian.

 

Aluminium was too soft for making armours.

Edited by Mr_THEJaManes, 08 September 2019 - 17:42.

[IHaTeCookie]

You clearly dont read what I write. In the video there are surviving examples and they are not "2x" heavy you know

[RAPT0R]

The thing is that cast iron wasn't used for armours wasnt it?

Cast iron is brittle I imagine that It could break after a good smack with a wooden mace.

 

Instead medieval armours were made from steel.

Plate armour is a historical type of personal body armour made from iron or steel plates. The steel they used was mild steel with small concentration of carbon. Carbon is a lightweight element, the more it is in steel, the lighter it is. Iron is almost 2x heavier, mild steel only 10% heavier like carbon steel, but its heavier. And I know that aluminium armors was used much later and maybe not like a full set, but they were used.

 

 

mail and chainmail is not the same thing because chainmail does not exist. In history mail was referred to as mail and only mail. A horse archers bows draw weight is lower than a longbowmens, So a HA bow would not do shit against properly made armor anyways. And you should really get that "armor is heavy as fuck and you get exhausted in 2 minutes" bullshit out of your mind. Unlike your examples of try wearing that etc. Plate armors weight is evenly distrubited in the body. And there are also things that make it more comfortable to wear. For example cuirasses or breastplates have slim waists and there is also the padding underneath which makes the armor more comfy to wear. Also where the hell did you get the idea of "multiply that by 2x". In the video I gave as an example shows actual surviving armor and his armors weight is very close to the real examples if not the same.

HA's bows have power only 50-90 lbs, but it would be enough for HA to kill the knight's horse and try to kill the knight, because every armor has weak points.

 

Look at this, something like chainmail really existed .

https://www.darkknig...chainmail-armor

 

 

But we got a little off the topic. Look at this: http://www.benjaminr...medieval-armor/  and watch videos at the bottom of the page. There is proof that a bow with power 110 lbs can penetrate the breast plate, one of the toughest parts of plate armor.

Edited by RAPT0R, 08 September 2019 - 18:48.

[Solda]

omfg just stop already