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[CW] The rule of character swapping


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#1 EirikRaude, Jarl

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 20:07

I'm very curious about this. I was always under the impression that in official cw's, the ones you post, you could not switch between characters in the middle of a set. I thought you had to wait for side switches. As I've now have experienced, some clans don't use this rule cause they believe it's not relevant (they might be right). Is that a rule which is to be followed? If it's not, that's okay for us, we just need to know so that the other team doesn't have an advantage over us, cause we've always played by this rule. 

RC could start to agree on basic rules with our opponents beforehand, if that's what the admins and the general player base thinks is the best way to go. We're good with either, only thing that matters is that it's equal for both teams. This post is just to clarify, please refrain from insulting and trolling so we actually could clarify this. :)


#2 Ryzen, Undisputed #1 Team Leader MFL 2018

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 20:13

Obviously you know my position on this but for the sake of discussion I'll say it for others who might read.

 

Generally, OT doesn't follow the Official Ruleset made by Sandorra in 2012 because nobody ever uses the entire ruleset (5 minute rounds, 5 round sets) so that makes it difficult to decide upon which rules are going to be valid or not. You'd require a discussion prior to every single CW which ultimately is what we do but we start from scratch rather than assuming any apply whatsoever.

 

Most clans we play seem to follow this same approach as we discuss any mercs limits or HA limits and such before matches. If something comes up mid-match we often just grin and bare it because there isn't really a way to solve it unless you want to abandon a CW halfway.

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#3 EirikRaude, Jarl

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 20:28

You have some strong arguments, I see your point. Any other views?


#4 Anchor_The_Mean

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 21:04

You have some strong arguments, I see your point. Any other views?

 
Ask him about Brexit

Edited by Anchor_The_Mean, 16 May 2018 - 21:06.

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#5 Theowl, Whale Hunter

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 21:18

For a clan of toxic idiots, we are pretty relaxed on most things. As Ryzen said, as long as people tell us before the match their preference. Happy to clan war you guys again anytime though. 

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#6 ZombieJR, i hate everyone

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 22:20

this was my bad as I was the one in question, personally I wouldn't have an issue if you swapped about as long as it's the same player that changed character. 

 

Hence why I did it, but if you think it should be against the rules I don't really mind and do see why it could possibly be.

Edited by ZombieJR, 16 May 2018 - 22:20.


#7 Sf, https://youtu.be/KlgfqddpEEc

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 22:52

ye fucking sombie retard again is pretending to be new

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#8 Edric

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 23:00

A lot of people seem to misread the rule concerning character swapping aswell (rule 4 and 11) 

What is allowed according to the ruleset:

- Swapping player A for player B at any time. The class player A played or player B has played is irrelevant.

 

What is not allowed according to the ruleset:

- Swapping player A out as e.g. archer, putting him back in as e.g. shielder.

 

Eventually, to be able to get your cw being uploaded officialy, it has, as far as I know, agree with the following thing:

- Both parties are agreed on the rules being used in the cw.

- Following the official ruleset as good as possible. Some rules, including glitching, cheating etc, aswell as putting more mercs in than the max limit of two per match (rule 9) or restarts midset (rule 13)  will result in the match not being uploaded. On the other hand, if the match is being played as a ft3, bo4 or bo5 is a minor thing that also doesnt change the game in essence, besides more rounds being played. I believe since about a year ago, specialy due to the native people coming over, ft3 took over the commonly used bo4 and bo5. Personaly, I dont mind it if we are playing ft3, bo4 or bo5, allthough generaly speaking, the more rounds, the better. 

 

I personaly wouldn't mind a possible revisit of the current ruleset on clanwars, but do strongly argue that clans do not come up with their own rules and demand the match to be uploaded officialy if they are in contradiction with the current ruleset. 

Edited by Edric, 16 May 2018 - 23:08.


#9 ZombieJR, i hate everyone

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 23:25

ye fucking sombie retard again is pretending to be new

i would like this but I have run out of likes :(


#10 Ryzen, Undisputed #1 Team Leader MFL 2018

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 00:02

A lot of people seem to misread the rule concerning character swapping aswell (rule 4 and 11) 

What is allowed according to the ruleset:

- Swapping player A for player B at any time. The class player A played or player B has played is irrelevant.

 

What is not allowed according to the ruleset:

- Swapping player A out as e.g. archer, putting him back in as e.g. shielder.

 

Eventually, to be able to get your cw being uploaded officialy, it has, as far as I know, agree with the following thing:

- Both parties are agreed on the rules being used in the cw.

- Following the official ruleset as good as possible. Some rules, including glitching, cheating etc, aswell as putting more mercs in than the max limit of two per match (rule 9) or restarts midset (rule 13)  will result in the match not being uploaded. On the other hand, if the match is being played as a ft3, bo4 or bo5 is a minor thing that also doesnt change the game in essence, besides more rounds being played. I believe since about a year ago, specialy due to the native people coming over, ft3 took over the commonly used bo4 and bo5. Personaly, I dont mind it if we are playing ft3, bo4 or bo5, allthough generaly speaking, the more rounds, the better. 

 

I personaly wouldn't mind a possible revisit of the current ruleset on clanwars, but do strongly argue that clans do not come up with their own rules and demand the match to be uploaded officialy if they are in contradiction with the current ruleset. 

 

We've literally played clanwars that were 5 rounds long and boxing only that got uploaded for fame points. If everything has to follow the official ruleset to be official then this mod is going to be both extremely boring and almost clanwarless.

 

Nobody ever follows the 5 minute round time limit in the ruleset even though it makes archers far more useful and heavy horses far more useful as opposed to the 3 minute rounds most people tend to play. If you're going to judge which rules apply or not then you can't even do it on the basis of it changing the game as everything will do to some degree. The fact that its a pick and choose scenario with that ruleset is the exact reason nobody gives any of it any notice.

 

Generally speaking I think most clans we've played in OT have played by the following rules:

  • No glitching
  • No cheating
  • 1 Map pick each
  • FT3, 180 time limit rounds
  • Be reasonable with mercenaries (Filling in numbers to play 8v8 is fine, playing 3 mercs over your clanmates isn't fair)
  • Resets only when both teams agree on it
  • (Occasional requests for no horse ranged)

 

It has worked completely fine for us and I think its simple and most of it is simply a given of "Don't be a dick if you want to play us again"


#11 ZombieJR, i hate everyone

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 00:06

Fully agree Ryzen, you're my favourite spokesman!


#12 EirikRaude, Jarl

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 00:32

this was my bad as I was the one in question, personally I wouldn't have an issue if you swapped about as long as it's the same player that changed character. 

 

Hence why I did it, but if you think it should be against the rules I don't really mind and do see why it could possibly be.

No worries Zombie, we were just surprised and a tad confused that's all  :)

We'll have no problem with contacting our opponents about which rules to play with from now on, as that seems to be what most people agree on so far. Thank you Ryzen and Edric for taking the time.
As for the cw today, it was a misunderstanding which led to their advantage, but we're all good! 

Edric, I wouldn't mind following rules since we've always tried to uphold them, but if we're gonna follow a standard ruleset, the already existing rules should in my opinion be changed. If they do, clans should either follow every rule or come to a written agreement (on steam, not a formal declaration heh). Anyway, I don't think most clans are actually wanting to gain advantage by being cancerous, agreeing on which rules to use is just a safety net if that would actually happen. 


#13 knez, Toxic Admin

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 04:24

Key thing to remember is that more less everything is allowed if both teams agree
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#14 Edric

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 06:23

No worries Zombie, we were just surprised and a tad confused that's all  :)

We'll have no problem with contacting our opponents about which rules to play with from now on, as that seems to be what most people agree on so far. Thank you Ryzen and Edric for taking the time.
As for the cw today, it was a misunderstanding which led to their advantage, but we're all good! 

Edric, I wouldn't mind following rules since we've always tried to uphold them, but if we're gonna follow a standard ruleset, the already existing rules should in my opinion be changed. If they do, clans should either follow every rule or come to a written agreement (on steam, not a formal declaration heh). Anyway, I don't think most clans are actually wanting to gain advantage by being cancerous, agreeing on which rules to use is just a safety net if that would actually happen. 

 

That is also why I said it might be a good thing that the rules will be revisted. Better having a good ruleset that everyone can easily obide by, instead of people making up their own rules. (Allthough, besides maybe some little changes, I dont think it needs to be that big of a revisit). 

 

 

Key thing to remember is that more less everything is allowed if both teams agree

 

That is actually not true. e.g. midround resets, more mercs than the max, player character swapping midset and more of that kind of stuff result in a match not being uploaded, unless the winning party has not commited any rulebreaks and wants the match to be uploaded. Wev had a couple of situations with cws not being uploaded 'recently' aswell. One of the most recent was with Chosen vs ZOG (or RKKA, dunno) in which Chosen played with 3 or 4 mercs. 


#15 sandorra, The God of (In)Justice

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 07:29

The ruleset was originally written back when the cw system was first introduced. Like you said, that was around 2012. The round and time limits have been in constant change since.

I believe everyone more or less agrees on the merc rule, atleast in practice. Playing mercs over clanmates without a good reason just isn't fair (Good reasons being ping, sudden need to go afk, or some other similar scenarios)

The player swapping has been on the table pretty much since the beginning. Originally, the point of the rule was to avoid delays on rounds and to prevent players from swapping class each round. Since Mercenaries has permanent equipment, this could be abused to quickly swap between fully-equipped archer, cavalry, shielder, and whatnot. It removes any semblance of tactics if the teams have completely different class-buildup every round, and then there's always that chance of rounds being played with players lacking and people shouting for restarts. Which leads us to the rule

No restarts mid-quarter. Simple really. Each restart delays the match, and we often tend to be on a strict time limit as is. I remember one clan going all in spec during an official tournament match during quarter when we refused to restart mid-quarter. Suffice to say, they lost the match

#16 Ryzen, Undisputed #1 Team Leader MFL 2018

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 07:36

Yet again that's ruleset related and not mechanically limited or incapable. I remember a CW between Spades and some clan with Ares in it where we played against 3 clan members and 5 mercs, it still got uploaded. (iirc the mercs for the other team included Sandorra, Dawlish and Vib)

 

The situation of characters swapping seems silly to me, in Native you can change class each round to fit a new tactic and play to strengths of being able to play multiple classes if you really want to. I don't really see why this would be a bigger issue on Mercs than Native as it means leaders have to realise when to swap someone around.

 

Only issue I really see with it would be time related leading to restarts but I think that is simply an 'honour' based system in that if you change someone's class mid-set and they miss the spawn timer, shit happens and you're playing 7-8.


#17 Matrona, Memento Mori.

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 08:33

For a clan of toxic idiots, we are pretty relaxed on most things. As Ryzen said, as long as people tell us before the match their preference. Happy to clan war you guys again anytime though. 

 

Who are you calling a toxic idiot you dirty slag


#18 Ryzen, Undisputed #1 Team Leader MFL 2018

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:03

Who are you calling a toxic idiot you dirty slag

 

Can confirm, Bradley is a whore.

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#19 Rangah, agnaR

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:29

I think character swapping at any time is fine, if the guy misses the spawn it's his fault and round goes on regardless

#20 Natsumi, the monster in your mind

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:30

Why shall we not switch chars during set? Im sorry but if i know i suck at playing for example inf i play some other class same goes for my members....

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