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Cavalry Balancing Ideas


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Poll: Cavalry Balancing Ideas (248 member(s) have cast votes)

Which ideas of balancing cavalry do you like?

  1. Do nothing, everything is fine. (77 votes [31.05%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 31.05%

  2. Disallow a rider to do actions when his horse is jumping. (58 votes [23.39%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.39%

  3. Interrupt rider's attack when his horse is rearing. (85 votes [34.27%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 34.27%

  4. Decrease the speed of wounded horses. (107 votes [43.15%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 43.15%

  5. Pay a little less gold to cavalrymen. (30 votes [12.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.10%

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#41 Dinkywinky, Sandorra you're a damn pleb. Go eat Dog shit with Paprica.

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 18:12

Well heavy horses in Mercs are generally quite crappy and you can see that in the comparison. I think the armor on light horses should be same as native though, 16 is too much it allows players to get away with being caught out by infantry. 


#42 SkyTime, 00101111 00101111 01100100 01100001 01100010 00101111 00101111

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 19:59

What's wrong with the characteristics? Just compare them with the native characteristics:

Mercenaries Courser         HP 100   armor 16   speed 47   maneuver 45   charge 12
Native Courser              HP 110   armor 12   speed 50   maneuver 44   charge 12

Mercenaries Sarranid Horse  HP 100   armor 16   speed 46   maneuver 47   charge 12
Native Sarranid Horse       HP 120   armor 10   speed 43   maneuver 54   charge 16

Mercenaries Charger         HP 140   armor 46   speed 39   maneuver 37   charge 32
Native Charger              HP 165   armor 58   speed 40   maneuver 44   charge 32
Notice that native armored horses have significantly better characteristics. They are stronger, faster and more manoeuvrable.

How do you image solving the problem by nerfing characteristics of horses? Do you think the problem would be solved if the manoeuvrability would be decreased by a couple of points? Or do you imagine horses being so slow that infantrymen can catch them easily?

 
Nerfing their maneuverability would make it a lot harder (you're not going to fix the problem by doing some small changes, everyone plays and wants to play cavalry for a damn good reason) to play cavalry. If you bumped into a wall or got stopped by a group of enemies you can't just turn away real quick and 420 blaze it only to return soon to see that same sorry group in a melee and get some free kills, essentially. If it took longer for you to turn you'd be fucked if you got stopped. It wouldn't turn horses into donkeys, it means you'd have to have some knowledge of what you're doing and you'd be punished for fucking up like every other class.
 
Also comparing horses and cavalry to native doesn't exactly work out too well. In native horsemen can choose between a good horse and good armor/weapons, they rarely can have both and when they do, they're just as broken as they're here but since in mercs you can have pretty much anything and slap it onto a horse, you see that a lot more often.
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#43 Rangah, @Aristotel

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 20:14

As a cav player, I can say that nerfing maneuverability by quite a notch would make things more challenging, but still completely playable. I can run into a wall and turn around in less than a second, which is quite dumb. All fours in for nerfing maneuverability for the light horses.
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#44 Unifyforce

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 21:19

Decrease it while using a lance? I very rarely see a light 1h cav.

#45 SkyTime, 00101111 00101111 01100100 01100001 01100010 00101111 00101111

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 21:31

Well 1h cav is not as good lance cav is, that's why it's not so popular. Such a limitation wouldn't make much sense though, there are better alternatives in my opinion.


#46 Homer

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 00:49

Our horses should be compared with Native horses just because speed and maneuverability is a special thing. These two parameters define how riding feels. If cavalry is not balanced for some reason, it doesn't mean that horses can be made slow and hard to control. Our horses are not faster and not easier to control than native horses. Heavy horses are weaker, slower and less maneuverable. I cannot nerf these key parameters even more. Horses should be both balanced and pleasant to use.

Unfortunately, you do not even try to think about other more accurate options. You just imagine that the idea of decreasing maneuverability would solve all problems. How much would you decrease it? By 5 or by 10? You want to make horses feel like tanks of WWI just for the sake of the moment when they get stopped by a wall or a player. But why do you believe that horsemen wouldn't be able to turn around and survive?

Please take a look at this video. I have decreased the maneuverability of Courser by 15. The horse with a green saddle had normal characteristics.
Testing (Click to Show)

I felt like I was riding a tractor when the speed was high. But when I was stopped by the fence, it didn't take significantly more time to turn around and ride away.

Why don't you try to find a better solution? It seems like you hate cavalrymen and just want to make something bad to them. Nobody suggested decreasing maneuverability for a short period of time (2-5 seconds) when a horse gets stopped by an enemy. Actually I wouldn't be able to implement this idea because maneuverability cannot be changed dynamically, but still, other similar ideas may be implementable.

#47 Dawlish, Un-Officially retired

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 01:03

To be fair homer makes a pretty compelling argument, I still stand by my comment that people don't hate the classes because they are op, they hate them because they are annoying. Both archers and cav normally get kills where the person who died had no good way of defending themselves, which is naturally frustrating for the guy who died. For archers it is run and shoot and for cav it is lance in the back/unblockable couch lance.

Maybe full plate armours could give a riding skill penalty for certain horses like the courser or sarranid horse, but not for hunters or larger horses. This might encourage light cavalry builds and also make a bigger variety in horses, currently hunters and armoured horses are unpopular.

Or alternatively would it be possible to scale the horse stats depending on the armour/weight of the rider? The most faceroll cav players are the ones that are in full plate meaning you can almost never kill them before dismounting them first, and even then they sometimes still survive the dismount and now you have the task of killing a plate shielder on foot. Also it wouldn't be unrealistic as a horse carrying a knight weighing 300 pounds would likely be under more strain than a guy wearing a padded aketon.

Just some ideas anyway.

#48 Macdara, Macco

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 01:15

This

 

It seems like you hate cavalrymen and just want to make something bad to them.

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#49 Rangah, @Aristotel

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 06:45

Decrease it while using a lance? I very rarely see a light 1h cav.


2 NW 4 u

#50 SkyTime, 00101111 00101111 01100100 01100001 01100010 00101111 00101111

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 11:49

To be fair homer makes a pretty compelling argument

 

I might disagree with Homer often but like just there, he backed up his point with a good video. I can agree on that now that he pointed out the idea is rather poor

 

 

Why don't you try to find a better solution? It seems like you hate cavalrymen and just want to make something bad to them.

 

I don't really hate cavalry, I play it my self every now and then (though I enjoy it the least of all native classes). What I very much dislike is how and why so many people play it, which I among with others have stated a lot of times now. It's simply the best class out there, a lot of maps support it (even though there are maps where cavalry is very weak and that is good), it's very easy to use and very effective at murdering people. It has all the good perks and really no drawbacks. Even if you do something very stupid as a horseman, say run into a wall so enemies get a go at you, you usually don't lose your horse and even if you do, the enemies are now facing a (usually) fairly well armored footman that is just as good on foot as they are, just a little bit slower. Add to that the other cavalry that hasn't been dismounted yet and it's a disaster, you dismount one with your pike (longspear is not good enough against cavalry) and he'll start targeting you because you now cannot block attacks, if you were to switch to a different weapon you then get cavalry going for you again. Despite the fact that horsemen lose HP when they fall from their saddle, they don't get punished enough. It's the most versatile and effective class so a lot of people plays it. It earns a lot of gold, fast and easily.

 

By now I must be a notoriously shit player despite having a decent K/D, I usually die in a prolonged melee fairly quick, even I can jump on a horse and murder half the server. I haven't even played cavalry before Mercenaries and even here I've had a cavalry character like three times (considering I've been here, annoying people for years now, that's very little time spent mounted). I must admit though, I've no idea what would work at this point. But one thing I do know, I'm staying the fuck away from battle. It's horrible.


#51 LastKnightOfCydonia, EIN CLAN, EIN DERP, EIN CYDONIA. HAIL THE PURPLE ONE.

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 12:49

0,7 K/D to 1.4 K/D in 3 months with Cav.

 

Been slowly declining towards 1.2 ever since I stopped using cav full-time.


#52 SkyTime, 00101111 00101111 01100100 01100001 01100010 00101111 00101111

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 13:09

You're another very special example yes. Indeed.

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#53 LastKnightOfCydonia, EIN CLAN, EIN DERP, EIN CYDONIA. HAIL THE PURPLE ONE.

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 13:50

Emphasis on the special.


#54 Unifyforce

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 14:47

Why don't you try to find a better solution? It seems like you hate cavalrymen and just want to make something bad to them. Nobody suggested decreasing maneuverability for a short period of time (2-5 seconds) when a horse gets stopped by an enemy. Actually I wouldn't be able to implement this idea because maneuverability cannot be changed dynamically, but still, other similar ideas may be implementable.


The problem is not the horse or the rider his health. Lancer cav is simply too easy to play. That is because you can one-hit kill people from a safe distance. Why don't you try and go with the NW route? Don't allow a lance to block. 1h cav really don't serve a role in this game. You will just be fighting an uphill battle against lancers since they can one-hit kill you.

 

Take for example Bloedwoud. 30/6 build full iron flesh, you throw away your speed,agility,... just to be one-hit lanced in the back (not couched). 

 

A real fix is swapping something out for that ability to one-hit people. 

Edited by Unifyforce, 05 March 2015 - 14:54.


#55 Dawlish, Un-Officially retired

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 14:58

Removing lance block would be a bit pointless because almost all cav wear a shield with lance anyway. In NW cavalry didn't have access to shields.


#56 Rangah, @Aristotel

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 15:11

Side note regarding NW: cav is much harder to play there, even as a lancer, because the lances are slow and cannot block. When playing hussar/heavy cav, every single inf player can outrange you, so it is really a challenge. I'd like lances in Mercs to be like lances in NW. Slow, but still a deadly in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. But over here, lances are super fast, deal massive damage and are pretty much the easiest weapon to play with, really. So even in the hands of a nob it still lets the said nob get a pretty decent K/D. 

 

E: I also think that lance hitboxes are fucked up, but this could be only me hating on lances.

Edited by Rangah, 05 March 2015 - 15:12.


#57 Korpi_Jopo, Dark suuls

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 15:14

Cavalry is way too easy to play in general compared to infantry, try to get a 20:1 score as infantry/ranged and then do the same thing as cav, see the difference? Also i think horse archers are just fine even thought they are cavalry aswell since they deal low damage per shot and have other cons like speed.

Edited by Korpi_Jopo, 05 March 2015 - 15:17.


#58 Dawlish, Un-Officially retired

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 15:26

Cav was hard in NW because every inf player had a sniper rifle musket that could one shot you, and failing that they had a awlpike strapped to the bottom of their gun.


#59 Unifyforce

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 15:40

Cav was hard in NW because every inf player had a sniper rifle musket that could one shot you, and failing that they had a awlpike strapped to the bottom of their gun.

Solution found


#60 Shemaforash, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 17:45

Nobody suggested decreasing maneuverability for a short period of time (2-5 seconds) when a horse gets stopped by an enemy.


Something that makes dealing with cavalry easier could be possibly changing the maneuverability when you get reared for two seconds. Otherwise I'm gonna be a dick and advise an upkeep system since it punishes cavalry a lot.





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