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#21 Jepekula

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 11:02

Please elaborate, Gwaihir.


#22 Gwaihir, du bist eine himbeere

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 11:20

I am referring to the pro-Kiev forces at the moment. There is a very significant portion of it that is neo-nazi, including many murky organisations. I'm not interested in getting into a debate over whether the pro-kiev forces or the pro-donetsk forces are right/wrong, but I do think its rather reckless how everyone seems to throw full unquestioning support behind the pro-kiev forces. Also, interestingly enough the snipers that were famous for shooting protesters in the protests leading up to the overthrow of the Ukrainian government, were actually employed by the neo-nazi rebels, not by the government. Which just shows what a bunch of gangsters are running the show.

 

Regarding the whole subject its also interesting the amount of propaganda that the West is throwing out (I'm not pro-West or pro-Russian in this matter, before I get accused of anything, just pro objectivity). For example, recently the Russian's sent a convoy of humanitarian aid into eastern Ukraine, and instantly the Whitehouse issued a statement saying that it was a military convoy and that Russia would suffer consequences. Which is odd, considering the convoy was inspected by the Red Cross, and the Kiev government itself, both of which stated it was not a military convoy. Though of course that doesn't suit the USA's agenda.

Edited by Gwaihir, 07 September 2014 - 11:26.


#23 Jepekula

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 11:24

Sources, please.


#24 Gwaihir, du bist eine himbeere

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 11:30

Well its become very common knowledge here in the UK, its pretty much in every major media outlet that exists here, including the BBC, CNN, SkyNews, RT, France24, Euronews, and about every newspaper. Specifically I read about neo-nazis in 'The Times' yesterday, but its been all over the place.

 

(actually come to think of it, I dont think CNN have reported on it, but the others have)

Edited by Gwaihir, 07 September 2014 - 11:31.


#25 sandorra, The God of (In)Justice

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 11:33

Media is not a valid source.


#26 Jepekula

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 11:36

 RT,

Yup, just as I thought. Your source is just as reliable as Göbbels in 1945.


#27 Gwaihir, du bist eine himbeere

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 11:41

Yup, just as I thought. Your source is just as reliable as Göbbels in 1945.

 

I knew as soon as I stated that you would jump on it. Just because I am eclectic in my sourcing of information, unlike apparently you, who is spoon fed your information, doesnt mean my points are invalid. People who out of hand reject RT, just because its Russian are ironically more brain washed than whoever it is they are pointing their criticism at. Anyway, if RT is completely false, are you suggesting that the BBC, Sky News, France24, Euronews and every british paper is in some sort of conspiracy with RT?

 

RT is in fact a good news source for getting different perspectives, but I can see from your fervent devotion to one side that that doesn't interest you. 

 

Sorry if I'm sounding a bit insulting, its not personal, its just so tiring encountering this one-sided view of this matter all the time. Maybe its because im from the UK that I dont have some sort of deeply ingrained anti-russian mentality, and rather can look at every situation with Russia in an objective manner, rather than all my views being already determined by my already existing prejudices.

Edited by Gwaihir, 07 September 2014 - 11:46.


#28 Jepekula

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 11:55

The only one who claims that all Ukrainians are neo-nazis is RT, which spreads mostly just absurd lies. I have not seen anything about Ukrainian government/parliament/fuckinganything being nazis in any actually valid and legitimate source. Russia Today is generally considered to be a source of mostly outright propaganda merely due to the fact that it is completely under control of the government of Russian Federation.

 

Hell, I checked BBC and there was absolutely nothing about pro-Kiev forces having abundant neo-nazis. Sure, there happens to be a few neo-nazis in the Azov battallion or other volunteer units, but that doesn't mean that suddenly the whole fucking country is the Third Reich reincarnated.

Claiming that all Ukrainian armed forces are neo-nazis or that there are no neo-nazis in Ukraine are both ridiculous claims. Even more ridiculous would be to say that Russia is not supplying and arming those terrorists in Donbass.

 

E: Even BBC says that Russians are in Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.com/n...europe-28969784

Edited by Jepekula, 07 September 2014 - 11:56.


#29 Gwaihir, du bist eine himbeere

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:04

You seem to be firing a lot of arguments at me that have no relevance to what I am saying. I haven't commented on whether Russia is supporting the rebels, I dont doubt that they are. Its a common practice, America does it. Do I agree with it? No.

 

Also, re-read my original comment, at no point did I say all Ukrainians are neo-nazis. I said there is a significant contingent that is neo-nazi.

 

To say RT is completely false is complete nonsense. Its story on the Aid Convoy was proven correct, so there is an immediate hole in your perfect world of black and white absolutes. What makes the eastern Ukrainians terrorists, but the Kiev rebels 'freedom fighters'? It seems the label 'terrorist' is used to demonize when ever it is convenient to do so. 


#30 sandorra, The God of (In)Justice

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:07

Just earlier today, I read how Russian Times had a newsline about how Perussuomalaiset (a finnish political party who dislike immigration etc) wanted that Finland joins russia. All this was based on how a politician of said party had said it would be as useful to make a defence pact with Russia as it would be to join NATO. Is that a valid source of information?


#31 Jepekula

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:09

Maybe the Eastern Urkainian "separatists" are terrorists because they happened to shoot down a certain civilian aircraft?

Also there were found mass graves from areas the Ukrainians liberated from the said terrorists.


#32 Gwaihir, du bist eine himbeere

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:42

Just earlier today, I read how Russian Times had a newsline about how Perussuomalaiset (a finnish political party who dislike immigration etc) wanted that Finland joins russia. All this was based on how a politician of said party had said it would be as useful to make a defence pact with Russia as it would be to join NATO. Is that a valid source of information?

 

The RT I speak of is 'Russia Today' news channel.

 

Maybe the Eastern Urkainian "separatists" are terrorists because they happened to shoot down a certain civilian aircraft?

Also there were found mass graves from areas the Ukrainians liberated from the said terrorists.

 

Where is the conclusive evidence that it was the Eastern Ukrainian 'Terrorists' that shot down the civilian plane? Also, that is just a nonsensical line to go down. If they did shoot it down, it is very unlikely that is was on purpose (i.e. it very unlikely that they would want to kill a load of neutral civilians for no gain whatsoever). Just for interest's sake, what do you think they had to gain from shooting down a civilian plane? It appears that there is no conclusive evidence to suggest who it was who shot down the plane, only speculation. However, if we are to look at it from the age-old detective saying of 'to find the culprit look for who benefits from the crime' then it certainly isn't the Eastern Ukrainian's who gain from it. Its quite clear that what is going on is a huge geo-political game, a continuation of the cold war. It is certainly not as simplistic as the mainstream media outlets like to portray it. Also, the way you suggest the people who shot down the plane represent the eastern Ukrainian rebels in their entirety is no different to saying all kiev forces are nazis.

 

What makes your reports any more valid than reports to the contrary? Can't you see that both sides have an agenda. The west isn't some cuddly do-gooder, and as we already know, neither is Russia. To blindly accept the reports from one side, whilst blindly ignoring the reports from the other side, is biased, one-sided, unfair and reminiscent of people who live in totalitarian states, such as North Korea. Try telling North Koreans anything contrary to what they are told, you will get nowhere. That is how you are behaving. The fact is, RT does in fact produce a lot of good, thought provoking news. And its not populated by soviet union nutcases. They have tons of experts from America many of whom are quite famous (so please don't say they are KGB agents disguised as americans) , famous whistle blowers, such as Julian Assange, and the like. The information found on RT can be cross-referenced, and they sight large amounts of neutral sources. To completely reject RT is just silly. And just because I don't condemn RT, please don't suddenly go to some sort of extreme conclusion that I endorse everything about them. A discerning mind can glean information from all sorts of sources. 

Edited by Gwaihir, 07 September 2014 - 12:45.


#33 Ulfric

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:42

We havent neo-nazi heroes . Taras Shevchenko, Lesya Ukrainianka, Ivan Franko, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, Sirko, Cossack Sich, the Cossacks, nobody talks about Nazis... you listen to a lot of Russian propaganda. Congratulations Gwaihir!


#34 Ulfric

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:49

Western Ukraine called "Nazis" because Historically we have evolved under Western influence. But that's no reason to call us so. Eastern Ukraine was developed under the influence of Russia...


#35 Gwaihir, du bist eine himbeere

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:52

We havent neo-nazi heroes . Taras Shevchenko, Lesya Ukrainianka, Ivan Franko, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, Sirko, Cossack Sich, the Cossacks, nobody talks about Nazis... you listen to a lot of Russian propaganda. Congratulations Gwaihir!

 

Look at my original comment. Look at all the sources I listed. Yet you only pick out the Russian one because its so suits you. Who is the brainwashed one? Im not pro-Russian, all I am calling for is a balanced view. The fact that that disturbs you so much, and you feel the need to condemn me simply because I question your dogma, speaks volumes. It is clear you have already classed me as Russian sympathizer, which I am not. Its just your mentality, you cannot stand for any other view than your own. Anything that questions your reality, must be propoganda.

 

Anyway, this wont go anywhere unless you maintain an open mind, which evidently isn't going to happen, so I shall remove myself from the discussion.

Edited by Gwaihir, 07 September 2014 - 12:57.

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#36 Ulfric

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:59

Dude, just do not watch the news, it is still lying there, lying everywhere ... This adjusts the people against each other. Blame only policy ... that behave like kids


#37 Gwaihir, du bist eine himbeere

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 13:03

Well its ok to watch the news, as long as you check the information and do not take it at face value. Sadly, I can't do much more than that, as I don't wish to go to the Ukraine to get first hand accounts, and even If I did, there would still be conflicting reports. And yes, I agree with your last sentence, it is the governments that cause all of these problems.


#38 Jepekula

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 13:05

Governemnts?


#39 Ulfric

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 13:08

you're an intelligent man Gwaihir, stay so, compare,and analyze 


#40 Prussia, Salty Brit

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 13:37

Is it just me or does anyone else remember Celtic making a thread like this? Coincidence, I think not.

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